NBC Sports In HD: I Can't 'Weather' It
Well, football season is upon us with numerous games to watch in HD glory on the pro and college level and numerous networks. Football in HD has been described as a "killer app", one that will and has sold HDTVs to numerous households. After watching football in HD, you will cringe everytime you have to sit through football in SD which, thankfully, is becoming far less common than it was just 2 years ago.For the most part, the major networks are doing a great job in their HD productions. For the most part, CBS is my favorite as I find their picture and audio quality to be top notch, with a very colorful and sharp picture with outstanding 5.1 audio. After CBS, I would rank Fox and ESPN next. While their picture is very good, it just does not have the clarity and the noise free picture that I see from CBS. Never the less, they both produce an outstanding HD experience in their own right.
However, bringing up the rear, by a wide margin, is NBC. Their sports coverage is downright awful, so much so that they should be embarrassed by what they are putting out. The image looks fine until the images on the screen move at which point the picture is a total mess of pixelation. On a smallish TV, it may not look so bad but 42" and above, it is awful. A case in point was this weekend's Notre Dame-Georgia Tech game which was a pixelated mess and unwatchable. It almost made me thankful I don't have a 65" screen.
Why does the picture look so bad on NBC vs. the other networks?
It can't be the quality of the cameras or the technicians working the game as they are top notch and I am sure have pride in the product they send to the network for distribution. I am also confident that the problem isn't the feed from NY (network headquarters) to the affiliates. The problem lies with the Weather Plus subchannel broadcast by the NBC affiliates. Simply put, the Weather Plus subchannel robs the primary digital signal of the bandwidth it needs to produce an acceptable HD picture, especially in programming with fast motion such as football. It is inadequate but NBC just doesn't care about the quality of the product. They would rather have a low resolution weather channel take up space on their over the air signal, a channel that has almost no viewers anyway, especially when their is compelling programming on their main channels such as college or pro football. If NBC truly cared about quality, they would ditch the Weather Plus channel and give us a full bandwidth HD channel. (Note: Most NBC owned and operated stations broadcast the Weather Plus subchannel on their digital spectrum.)
Let's go NBC, get in the game! We want the best looking HD possible. Dump the Weather Plus channel. It is best viewed on your various affiliate websites anyway as the quality of the product is so bad. I just don't understand NBC's preoccupation with the weather anyway. It seems that their local news broadcasts are weather channels themselves with a little news thrown in. When I want the weather, I will first turn to the radio, then the window and then to the Internet. The Weather Plus channel on the tube is the last place I will look.
NBC, if you must continue with the Weather channel, at least turn it off during HD programming, especially with marquee sports matchups. Football Night in America should be in full HD, not reduced bandwidth crap-o-vision HD we have been getting for the last couple of years. BTW, you audio needs work as well as the volume is so low, at least on WCAU-DT in Philly, that is is hard to year. Please, get with the program and deliver what your competitors are delivering, and SOON!
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35 Comments:
I couldn't agree with you more J Whip. You wanna a better example? I watched this weekend the IAAF Track and Field World Championship both on Vs and NBC HD. Vs had a great quality picture whereas the NBC picture was so bad that it was almost unwatchable.
They better improve their picture quality ASAP, otherwise don't blame anyone but themselves when next summer Olympic Games ratings suck...
I agree to with the poor quality of NBC's HD picture. It was almost as horrible as watching Notre Dame lose this past weekend. The pixelation and poor motion control made the game seem almost SD.
NBC needs to convert to 720p or do a better job like HDNET that uses 1080i in their compression with less artifacts! It's embarrassing.
Amen brother. I have been preaching this for 2 years. Did you catch their golf this weekend? Absolutely pathetic. OTA, DirecTv, cable, doesn't matter the product is crap.
You can email to NBC SPORTS here...
http://www.nbcsports.com/portal/site/nbcsports/menuitem.a50bc996cc8a05615a907d10493c2d04/
Tell them how bad they are and maybe they will get someone in there that can control the compression and signal better. It was pathetic....thank God for CBS and hopefully their games will be better to watch anyway while the Irish rebuild this year hopefully.
Same here, also in Philly. NBC's sports HD is pathetic. Just glad most Eagle games are on Fox, ESPN, etc. Same holds true for prime time shows, as NBC's HD feed is smeary, with obvious motion issues. It's like night and day between NBC and the rest. And this past weekend, the NBC feeds (both MPEG4 and MPEG2) had serious audio dropouts. Not sure if it's the fault of NBC or Directv, but I had to go back to the SD Tivo (no problems there).
WABC TV in NYC has two subchannels that it uses 24/7 and has a better picture then NBC sports so clearly the answer for NBC's poor picture is not to drop the sunchanel during sports. They have other issues that need to be addressed.
"WABC TV in NYC has two subchannels that it uses 24/7 and has a better picture then NBC sports so clearly the answer for NBC's poor picture is not to drop the sunchanel during sports. They have other issues that need to be addressed."
You forget, ABC broadcasts in 720p. My local ABC (KOAT) channel has no subchannels but broadcasts at only ~13mbps and it looks fine.
Actually most HD shows on NBC look ok because they're actually 24p telecined. More bandwidth is needed for true 1080i30.
I would also point out that NBCs golf coverage is terrible compared to CBS. They use SD field cameras out on the course. CBS has full HD field cameras. Please NBC, upgrade your cameras now that you are covering the FedEx Cup playoffs.
I really wouldn't know how bad the picture was cuz I don't like Football. I did watch the Track and field show, and Here in El Paso everything looked fine except for when they zoomed in to people running.
I believe all HD Sports Should be broadcast at a progressive resolution. I remember some bad Pixelation during March Madness. I've yet to see Pixalation on FOX, ABC, or ESPN.
Something I've always wondered is can a TV Station temporarily change broadcast resolution. For example NBC could switch from 1080i to 720p when it broadcast sports. If this possible they should do it. It doesn't even have to be 720p, it could be 900p or something like that.
It's Me again, the guy from El Paso. I forgot to say something, Here in El Paso we have Weather Plus and It didn't seem to effect the track and field show much. So, I don't think it's weather Plus's fault.
I'm sorry I have to disagree with the original story. If the subchannel was the problem how can you explain why the rebroadcast of the game on UHD is just as bad????
I am in total agreement on NBC (although I am not a football fan, I am a HUGE hockey fan). However, I have to note that the NBC carried over DirecTV is just as bad as the OTA version, and the weather channel shouldn't affect that right?
Hmm, interesting, where I live, CBS is HORRIBLE, I mean, even during regular scripted HDTV shows on CBS HD I get some pixelation. So where I live, NBC HD isn't the worst, but I do agree the low volume in sound is annoying, but as before, I have problems with CBS HD sound. I get louder sound from the 2 rear surround speakers than my 3 front speakers on CBS.
I would agree NBC HD's picture isn't the best, but it really feels like it's literally in the eye of the beholder.
NBC (WHDH BOSTON) was horrible in both D* and OTA. I ended up watching the game in SD.
GET WITH THE PROGRAM NBC!!
Sorry, Weather Plus is NOT the problem. When WTTW-DT in Chicago had a 3 MB subchannel and 1080i PBS HD, PBS-HD was absolutely breathtaking. It looks somewhat softer now that they are running 3 subs(!) and PBS-HD at 720P.
So you can run one subchannel (IE, NBC Weather Plus) and not do serious damage to your 1080i picture. It's got to be the backhaul, or encoders somewhere.
(Aside from the cameras in 16:9 standard definition, upconverted.)
One mroe comment. A few weeks ago on a Thursday as I write this, the Chicago Bears played a preseason football game at Soldier Field. This feed was sent directly via fiber from the production truck right to WMAQ-DT, our Chicago NBC affiliate, at a very high bitrate. People were raving about how good it was, that it was very close to CBS quality, with very little macroblocking. I saw it with my own eyes! This with NBC Weather Plus blasting away at full resolution on their subchannel. So again, it's between the truck and your TV station, but it is not the truck, nor is it your local station (unless they have 2 subchannels with a 1080i feed).
Don't blame the truck, don't blame the cameras (unless their SD and not looking good), and don't blame your local NBC affiliate if they only carry Weather Plus. I have seen great looking HD football on NBC with a subchannel! It's all in the transmission.
Sorry Gilbert but there was a noticable drop in HD quality on our NBC affiliate once Waetehr PLus was added. The HD highlights on ESPN from NBC events look better than they do live on NBC here. The degradation in PQ on 1080i signals with subchannels is well known in the industry. The 19 mbs signal is barely and I mean barely adequate to do 1080i right. Anything less is a real problem. As for CBS issues, I would ask the poster if it is a O & O or an affilate. Owned and operated CBS stations have no subchannels and send a full bandwidth HD signal. There are numerous affliates though who have subchannels and there are numerous complaints about hem in those areas in terms of PQ. Luckily, the CBS station in Philadelphia, KYW, is an O & O and has flawless PQ.
I complained to Comcast for a year about how bad NBC HD looked compared to ESPN, ABC and CBS and there was nothing that they could do. I use to watch the Olympics until NBC went HD. Now it simply isn't worth sitting through and watching any type of sports on the NBC, Universal TV channels.
I wont even watch there football games unless New England is playing, other wise I have better things to do. It's just a shame that no one in the higher up office can afford to buy an HD TV and see for themselves how bad their broadcast really is.
I was really hoping that when I switched to Direct TV that it would improve but I guess you can't change a leopards spots.
I want to also agree with your comment about the sound. I get the Washington NBC feed on Directv and it has the lowest sound volume of any channel on the dish. I have to jack up the sound when I go to that channel, then if I forget drop it back down and change to another one I get my ears blown off. While I have seen major improvements in all the other HD broadcasts, NBC has changed little.
Not sure how WCAU handles things over there in Philly, but on WNBC in NYC they have a crawl running along the bottom that tells you that you can get the "Weather Plus" coverage from your "Digital Cable" provider (i.e. TWC, Comcast, Cablevision...) BUT they make NO MENTION of the fact that it's available on a subchannel for all us 'po OTA digital viewers!!!
Even the talking weather heads make mention of how Weather Plus is available on Digital Cable...but don't refer to their OTA feed (which, as you say, is robbing quality MB's from their HD coverage!).
Amazing irony don't you think??
Did NBC not learn anything from the CBS mess with the NCAA basketball tournament? I guess not.
Unlike the writer ..."thankful I don't have a 65" screen," I d; a 70" screen. The solution is simple. Just turn it off and go to a smaller set.
Kinda defeats the purpose of large, widescreen, HDTV doesn't it?
I watched portions of the Notre Dame game last Saturday and most of the World Track & Field Championhips. I saw no pixelization or any of the other reported image degraders. Maybe we're just lucky here in Rochester, NY.
NBC-HD is a pixelated mess here in Houston, OTA, as well. Between poor HD quality, their recent iTunes fumble, their recent worst ratings period ever, NBC seems to be out of touch across the board. The NBC station here is real cheap, though, so maybe their encoder is old.
Be advised that the quality of the picture is a direct correlation and function of the format used by the network. The 720p is the preferred format, being able to keep up with the fast moving action...whereas with the 1080i format...it results in pixelation of the image. That is one of the downsides of 1080i...and the reason ABC, CBS and FOX chose the 720p for better fast moving sports broadcasts. Hopefully, once the 1080p becomes a standard and the networks start broadcasting in this formst, then this problem will go away. But, you are right, NBC needs to revert to the 720p.
Sorry Joe Whip but Weather plus isn't the major problem. My local 1080i CBS has 3 sub channels compared to only one for my local NBC. The problem is the local CBS has a much better picture with less macroblocking then NBC. Then take into consideration the rebroadcasts of games on UHD from Notre Dame games or the Skate boarding and they sill have the problem. I'm sure Wether Plus adds to the promlem but it isn't the source of the problem.
As far as ESPN and it having great PQ from NBC. I agree that somehow it avoids the problem. My only guess is that they get their feed before the problem is introduced. However there is no doubt a distribution problem with NBC HD.
yes everyone is confusing the numerous variables involved in the quality of the production
the original post is wrong in that NBC does go cheap on the internal distribution and core broadcast switching. however this isn't the only problem, but NBC has consciously chosen to cut costs so the affils will never get a good picture. they also radically cut staff and choose to ignore most quality control measures.
we can demonstrate this for a fact with the olympics by comparing HD feeds sent to Canada, BSHI japan, south korea, etc and see the softness and pixelation was NOT in their broadcasts, and they all got the same core feed.
generally the trucks used at the local sports event are shared amongst all networks, although they can choose to go with cheaper outfits, or a cheaper production using HD and SD equipment like NBC does for golf. so not much can be done at the truck as the people there see a good feed for the gear they have.
while the weather plus subchannel does takes some bits away from the main HD feed, it is not enough to cause a significant picture erosion. most NBC's affils are using 4th gen divicom encoders with stat mux that are much better than the 1st gen harris boxes most cbs and abc affils have. they are only losing 2mbps at the most, but the problem is exacerbated due to the poor signal feed them from NBC national sat feed.
the audio issue is NBC's use of dialnorm in order to maintain a consistent volume across different programs and locals. of course it only works if all stations use it and abide by the same rules, so far only NBC does so they seem lower, and the other nets seem rather hot. NBC could work with a higher dialnorm threshold if they wanted.
the signal broadcast over cable and over sat is affected by the local OTA distribution. this is because NBC multicasts the weather plus channel on the same OTA feed and the cable co and sat uses that mpeg2 feed as their source. so cable and sat can never be better than the mpeg2 sent OTA, and sometimes is worse if they reencode it like sat does to h264.
REPEAT AFTER ME, 720p IS NOT BETTER FOR SPORTS! the issues your seeing have nothing to do with progressive encoding, they have all to do with broadcast equipment quality, cost cutting, and bit starving. CBS proves day after day that 1080i wins, with TWICE the resolution than 720p. damn near nobody can spot interlace issues in 1080i, sports or not, and of those, only rarely do you get a signal in which you can spot it. progressive equipment was pushed in the early days because it was cheaper for studios and networks to go HD, and cheaper for the display manufacturers to offer 'HD' sets, as nobody could produce 1080 displays cost effectively. it costs more to do it right ;)
NBC has repeatedly mentioned in several articles and interviews that HD does not matter to them, except to use it as a sales gimmick. it will take a radical change at the network to care about quality. Fox at times has similar issues, choosing to cut costs on some programming, and also by going with 720p (House in 1080 offered on SkyHD UK is amazing, Lost is breathtaking) or when they stuff their sat with too many football telecasts at the same time.
NBC is also using s sub par national sat network on the Ku band subject to weather/rain fade, futher hampering the broadcast.
one thing people can easily hold NBC's feet to the fire is for calling broadcasts HD when the majority of the show is SD widescreen, like with their golf. it should be labeled digital widescreen with occasional HD feeds.
it can be tough, but you must educate yourself on how the whole food chain works to get the problem fixed. yelling at the cable co does little if they get a crappy signal to begin with. blaming one tiny aspect as the cause also doesn't work.
"REPEAT AFTER ME, 720p IS NOT BETTER FOR SPORTS!"
I disagree I saw most of the NCAA March Madness on CBS, and Many NBA Games on ABC.
March madness had way more defects than NBA Games. I checked the signal sometimes when there were defects in the picture for march madness, and most of the time it didn't move. Sure March madness might use cheaper cameras, because it's college Sports. Still it's the same Game. Why would there be more defects when using Interlaced Cameras?
Well saying one telecast looked better than another doesn't mean it has to do with progressive vs interlace.
Progressive broadcasts - keep in mind you ALSO need a progressive display to take advantage - only serve to solve interlacing issues: Combing/feathering & Line Twitter & Flicker.
Here is a good link with a brief overview of those issues:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html
If your not seeing lines disappear, or stair-stepping of horizontal lines and round images, then you are not seeing interlace issues.
Now the MM madness may have looked different or inferior due to a number of issues. One particular thing people get lost on is filtering. The whole point of HD is high definition or increase in resolution. Most are fooled that HD looks better due to its glossy look, but what is really the key is the increase in picture detail. Because 720p has half the resolution, it is much easier to filter out any 'blocking'; that doesn't mean the picture is beter than one that has some blocking, and it has nothing to do with progresive vs interlace broadcasts. Temporary action based blocking generally results when there is too much picture detail for the available pipe; it can be a good sign that your getting great overal detail in a real time broadcast and the encoder is having trouble keeping up. Now this doesn't cover all cases, for example NBC problems is sub standard distribution in which they starve and average picture bit wise and the encoder is only given enough to produce garbage.
If you choosing 720p, you basically choosing a 2megapixel camera over a 4megapixel camera.
One final note: you may be blaming the wrong person. The majority of issues lie within YOUR DTV display and gear; yes I know the idiot at best buy said yours was the best and you paid X-thousand for it ;)
Blocking results when your display is unable to display the picture it receives properly due to a number of factors. It is well known that a number of diplays use inferior internal picture decoders than can have issues like the CUE bug; some display technologies have inherent deficiencies; many people own lower rez display panels, and internal scaling causes problems; and in proper display settings cause many an issue. You may just have a crummy tv.
Well, I don't have a crummy tv, I have one of the best HDTVs released in 2006 according to the fine folks at avsforums, and NBC Sports HD looks like crap. Football, golf, doesn't matter. Anything with motion in HD looks terrible with pixelation / ghosting / macroblocking. Its not the tv, because these issues don't exist on CBS HD Feeds, nor do they exist on ESPN or ABC or Fox. It must be something with the Sports crew though, because regular HD shows from NBC (Tonight Show, dramas, etc) look great. Of course they don't have the quick movement that sports programming does.
I agree with J whip – NBC picture quality for football broadcasts is so crappy it makes it tough to watch. I don’t have a large screen set either; it’s a SONY 34” with a glass tube. Yesterday I watched the 49ers-Rams on FOX and then the Oakland-Denver game on CBS; both broadcasts look great! Then when I turned on the Patriots-Chargers game Sunday evening you could really see the picture quality drop-off. Even my fiancée, who isn’t a big football fan, commented on the noticeable difference in NBC’s picture quality.
After watching the first quarter on NBC’s game, I turned off my set in disgust; it was that bad.
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and I have Comcast Digital Cable. So far everything I get in HD from Comcast looks great except for NBC sports.
NBC needs to take notice of this and do something to fix it; they’re alienating a lot of football fans!
I pray they will fix this before the Olympics or heaven forbid, if they ever broadcast a Super Bowl.
I could not agree with you more!!! I've been calling NBC's Sunday Night Football NBC's Sunday Night Macro-blocking since the beginning of their sorry excuse for HD broadcasting. They should be ashamed.
BTW their audio is low because they have adapted the Dolby Digital audio system. The problem with that is the Dolby system is not good. There are significant problems that are not being addressed. That's why CBS is not using it! Seriously.
Try this sometime. Watch and listen to something in HD on a CBS station and then tune in to something in HD on an NBC station. Chances are you will notice two things right away. The first is you will have to turn up the volume on your audio. The second thing you will notice is the macro-blocking of the HD image.....
NBC stands for NoBody Cares!!!!!
I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Comcast on Sunday night trying to determine what was wrong with the HD NBC Picture. The picture flickered every time there was action on the field. During huddles, or when a player was injured on the field the picture was fine. They finally agreed to send a technician out to look at it. On Monday, the technician claimed he found a loose connection, but since there was no game on, there was no way to tell if he fixed it. Thank you for your website. Now I know that it is NBC that is the problem. The NFL should require them to fix it.
WCAU NBC 10 in Philly is very incompetent, These white lines on black areas of the screen have been going on for about 3 weeks now(both on cable & OTA) since the premier of all their new shows. Now wonder they didn't go high def yet on their local news.
CBS3, ABC6 and FOX29 all went hi def on their local news broadcasts and they all look great, that's why I don't even bother watching NBC10 except for SNF, JourneyMan and Life. Screw them, they are gonna be losing a lot of viewers. I'm an Electrical Engineer, and I can't believe the level of unprofessionalism and of incompetence that is going on at NBC10 video editing dept.
Loook on the bright side, at least we don't have to see Glenn Hurricane Schwartz in HD, he would be even more uglier and annoying in HD.
Anybody know why DTV only gets stereo from the HDTV NBC local feed in Spokane (not really a bad thing since Al and John -- the most bored and boring football announcing duo -- are less irritating coming out of two speakers than 7.)
Also, the Fox affiliate in Spokane broadcasts network shows in HD and DTV claims to carry them in HD, but I'm only getting them in SD. Since I get the other locals in HD, I assume it's not a satellite issue (signal strength is good on all the transponders) or an HR20 MPEG4 decoding issue.
It is like almost 2008 and I am watching the steeler game and hoping they don't move fast due to the blur effect or the pixel blocks that blurr the entire image.
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